FactCast 08– Nauka govori podkast, epizoda 24: komunikolog Vuk Vučetić

U ovoj epizodi podkasta FactCast 08 Nauka govori – 24, u gostima nam je dr Vuk Vučetić, vanredni profesor na Filozofskom fakultetu Univerziteta u Istočnom Sarajevu. Razgovaramo o medijima, o dezinformacijama, misinformacijama, malinformacijama i njihovom utjecaju na društvo. 

Nauka govori podkast je dostupan na platformama:
Youtube: https://bit.ly/naukagovori-podcast-youtube
Spotify: https://bit.ly/naukagovori_spotify
RadioPublic: https://bit.ly/radiopublic_naukagovori
Apple Podcast: https://bit.ly/applepodcast_naukagovori
Castbox: https://bit.ly/castbox_PNG
Facebook: https://bit.ly/FB_PNG_PL

 

Jelena Kalinić: Živimo u vremenu gdje ljudi više vjeruju viralnom videu nego stručnjaku. Danas je s nama u gostima doktor komunikoloških nauka Vuk Vučetić, vanredni profesor na Filozofskom fakultetu Univerziteta u Istočnom Sarajevu. Razgovaraćemo o medijima, o dezinformacijama, misinformacijama, malinformacijama i njihovom utjecaju na društvo, odnosno na nas. Vuče, dobrodošao.

Vuk Vučetić: Hvala na pozivu i baš mi je drago evo da sam danas tu.

Jelena Kalinić: Ovo je važna tema. Istovremeno joj se pridaje jako puno pažnje, a opet ta pažnja i informacije o medijskoj pismenosti ne dolaze dovoljno do ljudi. Ja obično tako počinjem s ljudima, odmah direktno, u glavu udarim. Da li mi postajemo, zapravo, u ovim vremenima, da li smo mi potrošač ili smo zapravo produkt toga što koristimo u ovoj ekonomiji pažnje?

Vuk Vučetić: Pa evo, to je sjajno pitanje za sam početak. Ja bih rekao zapravo da ne postoji besplatan ručak. Tu je nekada i Milton Friedman rekao, ako se dobro sjećam, odnosno prevedeno na jezik ekonomije pažnje, ja bih rekao, ukoliko je usluga besplatna, onda smo mi zapravo roba, korisnici su roba. Drugim riječima, pažnja i sve naše aktivnosti koje radimo zapravo u online prostoru je postala svojevrsna nafta 21. vijeka. Dakle, velike korporacije i kompanije koriste te naše digitalne aktivnosti u online prostoru i na osnovu toga zapravo kreiraju taj naš nekakav digitalni profil, koji onda koriste kako bi targetirali, lakše odnosno usmiravali različite sadržaje prema našim…

00/01/47

Jelena Kalinić: Mi smo roba.

Vuk Vučetić: Definitivno smo roba, zato što upravo našu pažnju koriste velike korporacije kako bi generisale dodatni profit. Ja vrlo često studentima volim da kažem zapravo da uporedimo kako se to targetiralo nekad i kako danas. Pa recimo, ako uzmete za primjer kako se nekada, evo recimo kada djeca treba da krenu u školu, pa onda se reklamiraju, recimo, butici i tako dalje. Dakle, reklame su obično nalazile… Bilbordi su se obično nalazili ispred škola ili negdje u blizini škole, tako da bi roditelji mogli da uoče te reklame. Međutim, danas više nema potrebe je da korporacije pogađaju gdje će roditelj prolaziti i kojim putem idu u školu, nego naprosto danas možete personalizovano targetirati sve potrebe pojedinaca. Tako da zapravo kada zapratimo ili potražimo, ne znam, kaputi, zima 2026, gumene čizme, odmah nam iskaču gumene čizme ili apartmani ili nešto u tom smislu. Tako da zapravo smo mi definitivno roba koja pomaže velikim korporacijama zapravo da ostvaruju dodatni profit. Ono što je problematično po meni jeste to što zapravo živimo u takvom svijetu, u takvom okruženju zapravo, koje je rukovođeno pametnim algoritmima. I mi praktično svoju pažnju… odnosno pametni algoritmi usmjeravaju našu pažnju. Tako da u tom smislu se zatvaramo tzv. eho komore.

Jelena Kalinić: U suštini mijenjaju i nas.

Vuk Vučetić: Apsolutno. Dakle, s obzirom da usmjeravaju našu pažnju i način na koji mi komuniciramo, način na koji mi sporazumijevamo se, način na koji mi principiramo zapravo stvarnost u kojoj živimo. E sad, zašto je to problematično? To nije problematično zbog toga što će nam algoritam usmjeravati pažnju da slušavamo određenu vrstu muzike ili da kupujemo određene čizme ili proizvode itd. Problem su zapravo političke ideje. Dakle, ukoliko algoritam usmjerava našu pažnju na određene političke ideje ili one političke ideje koje na neki način odgovaraju našim preferencijama. Problem je zato što se onda mi zatvaramo u eho komore i nismo spremni da se na neki način suočimo sa drugim  i drugačijim.

00/03/54

Jelena Kalinić: To sam te baš htjela pitati. Eho komore ti i ja znamo, ali ljudima mnogo ne znači taj pojam. Eho komora, echo bubbles, znači zatvaranje u jedan svjetonazor.

Vuk Vučetić: Upravo tako. Dakle, iako nama te eho komore, tako ga kažem, i zatvaranje u naše informacione eho komore, pomaže na neki način. Dakle, recimo kad slušate neku vrstu muzike, pa će vam YouTube prodložiti neki sličan muzički žanr ili sličnu numeru. To vama negdje i odgovara.

Jelena Kalinić: Što je babi milo, to joj se i snilo.

Vuk Vučetić: Da. Međutim, s druge strane, ukoliko vam usmjerava pažnju na neke određene političke ideje koje odgovaraju vašim preferencijama. Dakle, onaj problem je da se vi suočite sa drugim i drugačijim. Time se dolazi do polarizacije društva. Dakle, ako smo mi zatvoreni u svoje torove i nismo spremni da komuniciramo sa drugim, dakle, time je ugrožena i demokratija i svi demokratski principi. S obzirom ukoliko nema slobode i govora, i dialoga, debate i tako dalje, mislim da nismo spremni da razvijamo te demokratske vrijednosti koje su jako važne u savremenom društvu. I čemu svjedočimo? Svjedočimo upravo polarizaciji ne samo na lokalnom, nego zapravo i na globalnom nivou. Dakle, vidite da su su ove radikalne nekakve političke partije u usponu i ja bih rekao da dijelimično zapravo doprinosi upravo i ovaj problem.

00/05/12

Jelena Kalinić: Nema dijaloga, ali sad si spomenuo tu slobodu govora koju svi zastupamo, zaista jako bitna i svi smo nekako protiv cenzure, ali dokle može ići ta sloboda govora?

Vuk Vučetić: Pa, to je jedno od, kako bih rekao, pitanja za milion dolara, što bi se reklo.

Dakle, gdje je granica slobode govora? Teorijski rečeno, moja sloboda govora završava tamo gdje, kad počinjem da ugrožavam onog drugog. Zapravo završava tamo gdje počinje sloboda drugog. Ali to tako u teoriji lijepo zvuči. Mislim, u praksi je to vrlo onako fluidno i fleksibilno, jer se, imam osjećaj, pomjeraju granice.

Jelena Kalinić: Ali mi ne znamo što može povrijediti, naštetiti nekom drugom.

Vuk Vučetić: Upravo to! Čak dolazimo u, ja bih rekao, ulazimo u eru nekakve tiranije političkih korektnosti, gdje praktično danas ne smijemo ništa izgovoriti, jer se sve može zloupotrijebiti.

Jelena Kalinić: Mislim da sad zapravo izlazimo, da je sad opet došlo do te neke… preispoljavanja mišljenja kojim zaista mogu povrijediti nekog.

Vuk Vučetić: Upravo to. Sad je dakle drugi ekstrem. Ja vjerujem zapravo da, kad govorimo o nekakvom potencijalnom rješenju za tu situaciju, ja mislim da to sve kreće od nekakvih najranijih uzrasta. Ja mislim da je sistem i obrazovanja i generalno, društvena zajednica bi trebala više da se uključi u, kako bih rekao, odgajanje novih generacija koje će zapravo biti u skladu sa nekakvim principima i vrijednostima i duhom vremena, dakle, u kojima te generacije odrastaju.

00/06/42

Jelena Kalinić: Evo recimo, ja sam sad nedavno izložila nekim političkim ideologijama koje su potpuno suprotne od onoga što ja recimo zastupam, nećemo govoriti šta je to i sve to, ali mene zanima kad kažeš „rješenja“. A koje bi to moglo biti rješenje za mlade generacije? Znači, te godine? Jesu to debatni klubovi? Je li to učenje o dijalogu? Je li to način da saslušamo drugoga i sebe, svoje stavove argumentiramo? Koja je to metoda koju bi mogli, znači, tu da oslobodimo?

Vuk Vučetić: Dakle, čarobni štapić ne postoji. Ja često volim, trudim se ovako na predavanjima, pa im pokažem slajd Supermena. Ako imamo ovog čoveka, onda bi nam mogao možda pomoći da riješimo neke probleme. S obzirom da ga nema, dakle, naprosto, velika je odgovornost sada na pojedincu. Nažalost, sistem je zakazao. Mi već praktično, evo, 20 i kusur godina smo u 21. vijeku. Dakle, mnoge stvari su se izdešavale. Tehnologija je uznapredovala u ekspanziji i tako dalje, a sistem i dalje nema bilo kakav odgovor na te probleme. Tako da, u tom smislu, ne postoji sada nekakvo rješenje preko noći, da bi smo mi riješili ove probleme s kojim se susreću nove generacije. Ali ono što može da pomogne jeste upravo to, što više čitati, što više komunicirati, otvarati se prema drugačijim stavovima i mišljenjima. To ne znači nužno prihvatati ih, ali tražiti nekakve argumentovane načine kako da se suprotstavimo različitom mišljenju ukoliko se ne slažemo s njim. Ili, recimo, ukoliko se suočuvamo sa različitim oblicama dezinformacija ili teorija zavjere i tako dalje, to također možemo argumentovano sve, da se suprotstavimo svim tim problemima i izazovima. To je, naravno, veliki problem za pojedinca. To nije jednostavno.

00/08/27

Jelena Kalinić: Nema alate, bojim se da pojedinac nema alate da se suprotstavi

Vuk Vučetić: Nema alate. Jedini alat je, kako bih rekao, zdrav razum, što je, naravno, vrlo teško razviti preko noći. Zato je zapravo to generacijski posao. Ja bih rekao da nismo zakasnili, i ako sada krenemo, dakle, ako sistem obrazovanja ili duštvena zajednica ili različite institucije…

Jelena Kalinić: Ekstrakurikularno, možda, obrazovanje?

Vuk Vučetić: Da. Neformalno, dakle, da se to dopuni kako bi pojedinci, zapravo, prije svega shvatili u kakvom okruženju žive. Ja mislim da je to jedan od problema, da zapravo pojedinci, upravo zato što su odrasli uz različite ideje, različite vrijednosti i tako dalje, koje su usvojili po svom procesu socijalizacije, naprosto. Oni vjeruju zapravo da žive u određenim svjetovima koji imaju nekakva pravila i nekakvu logiku i to je sve tako. Međutim, problem nastaje onog trenutka kada se suprotstavi, kada se oni suoče sa nečim što ne odgovara onom u što su oni od rođenja bili upućeni.

Jelena Kalinić: Onda reaguju agresivnošću.

Vuk Vučetić: Oni reaguju agresivnošću i reaguju nerazumijevanjem, reaguju sa govorom mržnje, reaguju sa različitim negativnim pojavama kojima smo mi danas zapravo svjedoci u online prostoru. Vidite zapravo da je potpuna neregulisanost tog online prostora, da je to zapravo poligon za širenje različitih negativnih oblika i medijskih sadržaja, ali bih rekao i ovih aktivnosti, nerazumijevanja, govora mržnje, komentara, poziva na nasilje, nasilja kao takvog. Vidite zapravo da mlade generacije su praktično negdje… da je došlo do neke vrste normalizacije nasilja, ne samo u online prostoru, nego to se preliva sada i u stvarnu stvarnost. Svako malo vidimo primjere, dakle, dječaka i devojčica koji zapravo su žrtve nasilja ili čine nasilje. I čine od toga zapravo neku vrstu aktivnosti koja je prihvatljiva, nažalost.

00/10/23

Jelena Kalinić: Da li je možda razlog toga što oni na digitalnom prostoru, u digitalnom svijetu smatraju da su anonimizirani, drugačije je kada ti i ja sad razgovaramo ili bilo ko uživo, čak i kad se ne slažemo, nećemo se pokoškati iz međusobnog poštovanja. Ali online, u komentarima na društvenim mrežama, to je mnogo jednostavnije.

Vuk Vučetić: Tako je. Opet primjer iz prakse: Ako zamislite da ste u liftu i neko vam nagazi na nogu, vi ćete mu reći ok, nikakav problem. Ali ako se nađete u saobraćaju gdje je između vas samo 10 centimetara lima, dakle, automobil neki, ako ne krene odmah na zeleno, vi ste spremni praktično tom čovjeku kojeg nikad niste vidjeli u životu da ono sve saspete u lice. Tako da zapravo čim imate više posrednika u komunikaciji, tim je zapravo odgovornost manja. I distanci. I tim je odgovornost manja. Pa čak zapravo kad komuniciramo s nekim ko nam je prijatelj ili recimo momak ili djevojka, nešto u tom smislu, mnogo je lakše kada imamo nekakvog posrednika, Vibera ili nešto u tom smislu iskomunicirati neku poruku nego uživo. Pa kaže, uživo, raskinuti.

Jelena Kalinić: Mnogo je teže priznati „volim te“ ili „raskidamo“ uživo.

Vuk Vučetić: Naravno. Jer je odgovornost veća. Dakle, čim je odgovornost veća, dakle, samim tim je i situacija komplikovanija.

Jelena Kalinić: Manja fizička barijera. Onda nam to sve nekako govori da u svijetu u kojem možeš biti bilo šta, budi ljubazan. Nama fali i bontona i ljubaznosti, empatije i kritičkog mišljenja.

Vuk Vučetić: Upravo to. Dakle, mi smo dobili internet, jednu novu igračku kao društvo, kao civilizacija, a nismo dobili nikakva pravila za korištenje te igračke. Dakle, to je kao da, ne znam, djeci u vrtiću podijelite žilete i kažete, igrajte se ovo. I vi se nadate da se oni neće povrijediti, otprilike. To je nivo razumijevanja uloge interneta danas u svijetu. Naprosto, dakle, nove generacije nemaju nikakvu sistemsku podršku za upotrebu interneta i ponašanje zapravo online.

00/12/23

Jelena Kalinić: Zapravo, čitava priča oko medijske i digitalne  pismenosti je oko toga da nemamo iz domova, škola, obdaništa, da kažemo, to učenje kako se ponaša. Kao što je nakad bio bonton za večerom, kako držati viljušku i nož i da se ne mljacka i ne srče kad se jede supa, sada nam treba ovo za medijsku i digitalnu.

Vuk Vučetić: Mi nemamo nikakvu konvenciju. Evo, maloprije smo spomenuli u nekom svom neformalnom razgovoru, nešto govorili o emotikonima i emojijima. Pa ja navodim uvijek taj primjer, zapravo, kako mi nemamo nikakvu konvenciju oko upotrebe tih gesti. Dakle, nemamo uopšte, to je sad prepušteno nekakvom našem internom dogovoru, nekakoj konvenciji koja vrlo često može više da zbunjuje nego da doprinasi nekakvom sporazumijevanju.

Jelena Kalinić: Vezano za ove emojije, sjećam sam onog primjera one ruke ovako. I neki to tumače kao, nabaci mi, give me five, nabaci mi pet, a drugi kao molitvu.

Vuk Vučetić: Da. Ja sam imao u ličnom iskustvu jednu situaciju kada sam s kolegom se dopisivao. I tad se tek pojavila onaj palac na mesendžeru. Dakle, ona jedna automatska ona komanda. I nešto smo mi često bili u nekakvoj komunikaciji kad meni nešto u vožnji ili nešto tako. Ja njemu odgovorim sa tim palcima u smislu, prihvatio sam poruku, nemam vremena.. ali sve najpozitivnije. Prihvatio sam poruku, mislim o tome. I nakon nekog vremena smo sjedili na kafi i on je mi rekao: „što si ti ljut?“ Reko’: „što misliš da sam ljut?“ Kao: „pa ti meni uvijek pošalješ onaj palac“. Reko’: „to znači da je okej“. Reko’: „meni to znači zapravo da ništa nije okej, da hoćeš da me skineš sa…“

Jelena Kalinić: Sa dnevnog reda.

Vuk Vučetić: Ja sam shvatio zapravo da ti emojiji i slično mogu više doprinijeti nekom nesporazumu nego sporazumijevanju.

00/14/01

Jelena Kalinić: Mene su ovi moji iz ekipe naučili kao ako staviš srce na Viberu, to znači prihvataš. Tako je to, ali vezano za to, je preuranjeno, brzo tumačenje ovih neverbalnih signala, poruka koje su pismene. Znači nekako sad prelazimo kao u egipatsko pismo, hijeroglife. Da li sad mi nekako gubimo sposobnost dubokog kritičkog mišljenja?

Vuk Vučetić: Apsolutno. Ja mislim zapravo da sve, da okruženje unutar kojeg mi živimo, evo recimo maloprije smo spomenuli medijsku pismenost, ja mislim da je ključna stvar tu da svi mi razumijemo zapravo da medijska pismenost nije samo razumijevanje nekakvog medijskog sadržaja. Dakle, odavno smo prešli sa tog nivoa, tako da kažem. Mislim da je zapravo suština medijskog opismenjavanja zapravo razumijevanje toga da mi živimo u medijima kao okruženju. Dakle, mediji više nisu alati koji nam pomažu da lakše i brže komuniciramo, nego zapravo predstavljuju okruženje unutar kojeg se odvija duštvena stvarnost. Tako da zapravo oni oblikuju način na koji mi funkcionišemo, komuniciramo, percipiramo druge itd. Dakle, to jedno razumijevanje nam nedostaje. Upravo u takvom okruženju, zapravo postoje različiti sadržaji i različite medijske forme koje zapravo cirkulišu i koje čine zapravo da ljudi gube svoju pažnju. Maloprije smo pričali o tome. Da je zapravo naša pažnja danas svedena na nekoliko sekundi praktično. Dakle, koliko scrollamo, toliko nam se pažnja može i zadržati.

Sad, problem je u tome što naš mozak bez obzira koliko scrollamo, mora da donosi nekakav niz nekakvih sitnih odluka da li da se zadržimo na tom sadržaju ili da pređemo na novi. Taj veliki broj odluka koji naš mozak mora da donese u vrlo kratkim jedinicama vremena, zapravo zamara mozak. I do toga zapravo da naš mozak više ne može da obrađuje informacije i sadržaje koje mi percipiramo. U tom smislu, mi možemo da provedemo i po dva i tri sata scrollajući nakon toga da nemamo uopšte pojma šta smo vidjeli i da li smo uopšte informisani.

00/16/12

Jelena Kalinić: Je li onda bolje da vježbamo mozak da jedan tekst ili jedan video pogledamo dubinski umjesto 30 tako po 5-10 sekundi?

Vuk Vučetić: To se zove medijska dijeta. U suštini…

Jelena Kalinić: Detoksikacija.

Vuk Vučetić: Detoksikacija, dakle, medijska. To bi zapravo bilo nekakva… Dakle, to je sad opet teško. Vi sad imate generacije i generacije djece i mladih, zapravo, sad čak i starih, koji dosta svog vremena provodi upravo u tom nekritičkom, dakle, nekritičkom otklonu prema tehnologijama i prema sadržajima koje konzumiraju. Tako da zapravo u tom smislu jedna vrsta lične higijene, dakle, kada je u pitanju odnos prema medijima i medijskim sadržajima, bi svakako trebalo od najranijih uzrasta početi koristiti. Međutim, šta mi imamo sad kao problem? Imamo mlade roditelje koji, da bi smirili svoju djecu, otprilike daju im nekakav pametni telefon i oni skrolaju tražeći neke sadržaje i oni već tu stvaraju neku vrstu navike i ovisnosti.

Jelena Kalinić: Baš smo s profesoricom Zečević pričali o tome.

Vuk Vučetić: Da, da. Tako da zapravo u tom smislu nekakav recept kako to da se postigne je vrlo teško, ali mislim da nije nemoguće. Mislim da je zapravo to izazov za i obrazovni sistem i porodicu i širu zajednicu da se zapravo uključe kako bi takve stvari… Ali mislim da je problem u tome što institucije uopšte ne prepoznaju da mi živimo u jednom novom okruženju. Dakle, ono što je vrlo zanimljivo i u knjigama se može naći u različitim istraživanjima. Recimo, Marshall McLuhan je primijetio zapravo da su i u 20. vijeku dakle institucije su uvijek kasnile sa odgovorom na razvoj tehnologije.

00/17/51

Jelena Kalinić: A odgovor je uglavnom samoregulacija i nešto tako. Ali kada govorimo o toj medijskoj pismenosti, digitalnoj pismenosti, o izlaganju ogromnoj količini sadržaja, kad smo mi već svi tu, hajde da vidimo koji su to najčešći oblici manipulacija u medijskom i digitalnom prostoru. Stalno spominjemo te misinformacije, malinformacije, osim ovih ljudi u struci komunikatorskoj i nas koji se bave možda debankingom, malo ko zna distinkciju među to dvoje i koji su to neki najčešći spinovi, manipulacije koje bi ti možda izdvojio. Je li to uzimanje iz konteksta?

Vuk Vučetić: Što se tiče generalno te… čitavog diskursa, narativa o dezinformacijama koje zapravo cirkulušu u online prostor, ja bih rekao da je priča nekako malo otišla, po mom nekakvom mišljenju, u jednom pogrešnom smjeru. Jer se vrlo često hoće za dezinformaciju proglasiti ono što je netačno. Ovo je netačno, ovo je dezinformacija za razliku od toga imamo činjenice koje su tačne. Ja bih rekao da je zapravo priča o dezinformacijama i generalno definicija dezinformacije, to je ono što zapravo ljudi vrlo često zanemaruju. Dakle, nekakva definicija dezinformacije bi trebalo da bude zlonamjerno širenje, mora biti zlonamirno. Dakle, mora biti zlonamjerno sistemsko širenje provjerljivo netačnih sadržanja. Pazite, dakle, kad vi imate zlonamjerno, već namjera je vrlo teško dokaziva. Dakle, da bi nešto bilo namjerno, ono mora da se sistemski ponavlja iz dana u dan i tako dalje. Tako da vi ne možete uspostaviti da je nešto dezinformacija u realnom vremenu, nego se to može ispostaviti nekako da je bila dezinformacija ako se ustanovi da se to ponavljalo. Dakle, to mora biti provjerljivo netačno. Dakle, da se ispostavi da to što je neko govorio je netačno. Mi danas, pazite, u narativu političara, u narativu različitih tih ljudi koji šire takve sadažaje ili slične sadažaje. Mi imamo različite suptilne oblike, dakle, i spinova, i alternativnih činjenica, i činjenica izdvojenih iz konteksta i tako dalje. Dakle, to je sve toliko siva neka zona koja je neuhvatljiva praktično. Dakle, pogotovo u običnom oku, tako da kažemo, u nekom prosječnom konzumentu medijskih sadažaja, vrlo teško je da razazna da li je to spin, da li je to nekakav pokušaj manipulacije, da li je to nekakva alternativna činjenica, jer je sad i to jedan od fenomena koji je vrlo zanimljiv. Tako da zapravo u tom kontekstu, vrlo često se olako nešto prozove dezinformacijom. Dakle, zato što to je sad nekakav narativ, buzzword što bi se reklo, pa je sad sve dezinformacija…

00/20/28

Jelena Kalinić: Najlakše ga je spakovati u tu kategoriju.

Vuk Vučetić: Ali u suštini, mi imamo veliki niz različitih fenomena kao što su alternativne činjenice, spinovi…

Jelena Kalinić: Iskorištavanje logičkih grešaka.

Vuk Vučetić: Iskorištavanje logičkih grešaka, bravo. Dakle, sve su to nekakvi elementi koji spadaju u dezinformativno djelovanje, jel? Dakle, spadaju u… Ali praktično to je postojalo od kad postoji čovjek.

Jelena Kalinić: Žuta štampa, novinarske patke, manipulacije razne političke, gledali smo filmove…

Vuk Vučetić: Spomenula se zapravo vađenje iz konteksta. Dakle, jedan od najzanimljivijih, ili eto najneobičnijih oblika dezinformativnog djelovanja ili naj… evo, možda aktuelnijih oblika dezinformativnog djelovanja je vađenje iz konteksta. Šta to znači? Dakle, imate jednu vjerodostojnu fotografiju postavljenu u jedan potpuno drugačiji kontekst.

Jelena Kalinić: Može li izjava biti takva?

Vuk Vučetić: Može, apsolutno. Dakle, sreće je što sad, recimo, u eri digitalnih tehnologija i besplatnih digitalnih alata, mi imamo dakle, način kako možemo, jel, izvršiti neku vrstu provjere. Ali opet, dakle, morate…

Jelena Kalinić: A opet većina ljudi to ne znaju.

Vuk Vučetić: Ne znaju. Dakle, to je problem.

Jelena Kalinić: Šta ćemo, Vuče sa trolovima i botovima?

Vuk Vučetić: To je zapravo fenomen. Trolovi i botovi su se pojavili prije nekih desetak godina na političkoj sceni. To su postali, ja bih rekao, „tihi heroji“, jel, pod navodnim znacima.

Jelena Kalinić: Antiheroji.

Vuk Vučetić: Antiheroji, ovaj, političkog diskursa, pogotovo, dakle, na ovim prostorima. Mi trebamo da znamo zapravo da su botovi u nekakvom direktnom prevodu, jel, dakle, etimološki gledano, zapravo to su… Roboti. Roboti koji bi trebali da… to su softveri koji bi trebali da generišu nekakav sadržaj.

Jelena Kalinić: A to imaju one farme jel, koji nešto, generišu neki sadržaj.

Vuk Vučetić: Međutim, u našem kontekstu, botovi su zapravo obični ljudi, jel, dakle, mi smo ih preveli na obične ljude. I zapravo to je nekako armija, mašinerija, ljudi koji su plaćeni da generišu ili nekakav sadržaj, ili da usmjeravaju diskusiju i raspravu. Njihov cilj je zapravo, naravno, ili, sa jedne strane, promocija određenih ideja…

00/22/20

Jelena Kalinić: Polarizacija…

Vuk Vučetić: …ili ličnosti. Ili, sa druge strane, osuđivanje, onih koji su politički protivnici. U svakom slučaju, oni doprinose upravo tome. Dakle, polarizaciji, to su negativne pojave u medijskom prostoru. I jedan od najvećih problema jeste što nedovoljno medijski pismene osobe ne mogu da prepoznaju…

Jelena Kalinić: Razlučiti. To sam sad htjela da te pitam: Imamo li način da razlučimo da neko, možda, ima neku agendu, botovsku, trolovsku…

Vuk Vučetić: Ono što je, do sad, jel dakle, smo uspjeli nekako da nadođemo do nekih rješenja, jeste da su svi ti nalozi, ili, obično, jel dakle, da su botovski nalozi, imaju nekakve specifične karakteristike. To je da oni nemaju puno prijatelja, nego da oni prate puno drugih ljudi. Dakle, da su obično nekakve fotografije koje nisu, je li, autentične, nego su neke preuzete s interneta, ili neke, dakle, generisane na drugačiji način.

Jelena Kalinić: Ili su novi čak profili, prije izbora.

Vuk Vučetić: I to pogotovo dolazi do izražaja upravo u tim nekakvim kriznim periodima. Dakle, kada su, ne znam, ili početak predizborne kampanje, ili nekakva vanredna okolnost, itd. Obično, u toj situaciji vidimo, dakle, poplavu ne samo ovih botova i trolova, nego dakle poplavu različitih fejk portala, dakle, takozvanih portaloida koji nemaju impresume, itd.

Jelena Kalinić: Dakle, impresum je onaj dio portala gdje se potpisuje urednik i neko ko svojim imenom i preizmenom stoji iza toga. Ima ih dosta.

Vuk Vučetić: Dakle, to, evo, poplava je, dakle, praktično u eri kada je izborna godina ili kada počne predizborna kampanja. Različiti politički subjekti, dakle, pokreću te portale. Nemamo mi dokaze za to, ali naprosto prema sadržaju se može, dakle, povezati sa različitim političkim subjektima. Dakle, oni generišu sadržaje koji upravo imaju takav dezinformativan spin karakter i tako dalje.

00/24/15

Jelena Kalinić: I jezik je malo toksičan.

Vuk Vučetić: Jezik je uvijek senzacionalan i toksičan. Uvijek je dramatizacija. I tako dalje. I zapravo i to doprinosi… I onda, uz te nekakve portale imamo i armiju botova koji onda šeruju, dakle, prosjeđuju te sadržaje. I onda je to nekakva matrica.

Jelena Kalinić: I onda to dobiva zapravo vidljivost. Ali kad smo kod ovih ljudi koji stvaraju kontent, kako ružno to zvuči, sadržaj, imamo još jedan fenomen, influenseri.

Vuk Vučetić: Tako je.

Jelena Kalinić: I ne možemo samo da kažemo influenseri su oni koji djeluju negativno, ima ih koji imaju… Šta to znači? Govorimo o kontekstu: influenseri i odgovornost. Kako mogu influenseri biti odgovorni?

Vuk Vučetić: Ja mislim zapravo kad govorimo o influenserima, govorimo zapravo o novoj eri, dakle, o eri interneta, eri društvenih mreža, koja je zapravo jedna nova platforma koja je omogućila zapravo takvim ljudima da dobiju neku vrstu pažnje i prostora. S obzirom da je internet nereguliran prostor, dakle, niko ne može očekivati sada, da je on još uvijek… iluzorno je zapravo očekivati od ljudi koji na taj način zarađuju, dakle, tržište je slobodno na neki način, da će zapravo biti odgovorni sami od sebe. Dakle, da će koristiti nekakav diskurs ili da će koristiti nekakve, kreirati nekakve sadržaje koji će doprinijeti nekakvom…

Jelena Kalinić: Ako nisu samo plaćeni…

Vuk Vučetić: Sve se plaća, naprosto, i u tom smislu zapravo i ta vrsta odgovornosti za javnu riječ se plaća i kod influensera. Na sreću, mi imamo pozitivne primjere, dakle, influensera koji su u okviru nekakvih svojih aktivnosti…

Jelena Kalinić: U kampanjama bili…

Vuk Vučetić: Bili dio različitih kampanja podizanja svijesti.

Jelena Kalinić: Društveno, vrlo…

Vuk Vučetić: Da, odgovorni i tako dalje. Dakle, zapravo, u tom smislu ja vjerujem da se stvari neće same od sebe promijeniti. Zapravo, to samo može od odozdo krenuti, tako da kažem. Dakle, odgovornost je prebačena na pojedinca, dakle, na nas, na korisnike. Ako mi prepoznamo da je neko influenser, odnosno, ako mi damo nekakvu pažnju, on će, dakle, postati važan.

00/26/16

Jelena Kalinić: Ali trebamo i tu nekako odgovornost staviti na stranu institucija da se to zaista reguliše?

Vuk Vučetić: Naravno, dakle, obrazovni sistem… Ali, s obzirom da je sad tako kako jeste, dakle, nažalost, vraćamo se opet na pojedinca koji ima nekakve svoje vještine, ili bi trebao da razvija nekakve svoje vještine i kompetencije da prepozna. Okej, ovaj influencer je koristan, u najširijem smislu. Njega ću pratiti.

Jelena Kalinić: Ali ne sve od njega…

Vuk Vučetić: Ali sa druge strane, moramo razvrstati, dakle, šta je pozitivno, šta je negativno. Onda je tu, dakle, razlika je vrlo fleksibilna. Što je za mene dobro, za nekog nije i tako dalje. Ali, svakako, mislim da ima pozitivnih primjera. Dakle, influensera koji rade…

Jelena Kalinić: Sada imaju influenseri tu oreol neke negativnosti, pa bih malo da ipak, da ne budemo ni prema njima negativni.

Vuk Vučetić: Da, ne treba, ono, ništa nije crno bijelo. Dakle, u svakom slučaju, u svim ovim primjerima, dakle, to što je neregulisan internet ne znači nužno negativne stvari. Dakle, imate bezbroj nekakvih i blogova, i sajtova, i podcasta, i tako dalje…

Jelena Kalinić: Višeglasje.

Vuk Vučetić: koji mogu, dakle, da doprinesu nekakvom kvalitetu. Ali, nažalost, problem u tome je što negativni sadržaj dominiraju.

Jelena Kalinić: Zato što oni doprinose ekonomiji straha. Nemamo još puno vremena, ali voljela bih još samo da se okrenemo na jednom vrlo specifičnom tipu sadržaja. To je ono što su poglasali slop sadržajem, brain rot sadržajem, nekvalitetnim informacijama, informacijama koje su često generisane umjetnom inteligencijom. Dakle, ne govorimo o svim sadržajima generirsanim umjetnom inteligencijom, ali imamo sve više toga da su umjetna inteligencija, da su generisani profili nepostojeći, i taj slop sadržaj, pa imamo čitav žanr italian slopa, brain rota, pa kod djece onaj Skibidi toilet i svašta nešto. Dakle, šta znače ovi pojmovi i kako vjerovati svojim očima?

Vuk Vučetić: Dakle, ono što je problematično jeste što mi praktično danas živimo praktično život u virtualnoj stvarnosti. Manuel Castells, čuveni teoretičar, kaže da mi ne živimo više u virtualnoj stvarnosti, nego u stvarnoj virtualnosti. Dakle, u tom smislu, svi ovi fenomeni koje se pobrojala zapravo govore u prilog tome da se zapravo naš život preselio praktično u nekakvu virtualnu stvarnost i da nam sad valja tamo preživjeti, na neki način. Spomenula si brain rot, zapravo to je na tragu onoga što smo maloprije pričali. Jeste, dakle, to truljenje mozga, odnosno ta prezasićenost različitim negativnim sadržajima, ali ja bih rekao i to iscrpljujuće skrolovanje, kilometarsko.

00/28/45

Jelena Kalinić: Nekad nisu ni negativni, nego su nekad prosto glupi, ono banane, balvani, nešto što…

Vuk Vučetić: Skibidi toilet, način na koji je to postalo viralno i popularno, praktično govori o jednom meni nerazumljivom još uvijek, dakle, konceptu.

Jelena Kalinić: A možda su to samo neke faze dječice, oni se na kraju stide toga…

Vuk Vučetić: Tako da zapravo mislim da kad govorimo o svim tim sadržajima, zapravo definitivno možemo reći da je izazov veliki. Dakle, kako se izboriti sa svim tim. Dakle, ali ono što jeste neko potencijalno rješenje jeste medijsko opismljenjavanje. To je ono što je nekako… Jeste buzzword, jeste nešto što sad svi koriste…

Jelena Kalinić: Ali nikako, nije definisano „kako?“. Da li može, recimo, jačanje nekih ozbiljnijih, ne mislim ozbiljnijih, nego sadržaja koje zaista mogu pomoći tome poput sadržaja o nauci, jačanju naučne pismenosti, što je nama, recimo, ovdje nekakav fokus, mogu da budu antidote, antiotrov za takve stvari.

Vuk Vučetić: Apsolutno!

Jelena Kalinić: A izbjegava se u medijima.

Vuk Vučetić: Problem u tome je što zapravo u medijima imate samo ono što je bombastično, senzacionalno, što je na neki način…

Jelena Kalinić: Klikabilno.

Vuk Vučetić: Klikabilno, što doprinosi nekom emotivnom naboju itd. Nauka nije takva. E, zato imate teorije zavjere koje jesu kao neka vrsta pandama onome što je nauka. Ja mislim da nauka nikada nije doživjela svoj puni nekakav… i ne može i ne treba da bude to. A sa druge strane, imate pozitivne primjere: evo recimo imate Politikin zabavnik kao nekakav primjer koji govori o tome da nauka i takav sadržaj ipak ima svoj prostor i u ovom svijetu

00/30/20

Jelena Kalinić: Od 7 do 77

Vuk Vučetić: Pa i ovakvi podcasti i slično, i ovo što ti radiš zapravo sa svojim blogom je ono što ipak predstavlja neku vrstu otpora, ako se tako može reći, i doprinosi nekoj vrsti balansa. Eh sad, kako učiniti da nauka zapravo postane klikabilna? I zapravo da li je to uopšte cilj? Ja mislim, u možda najširem smislu, i ne bi trebalo da bude jer onda bismo sveli nauku upravo na to: „da li ste znali“, „senzacionalno“ i tako dalje. Sa druge strane, ono što je po meni također jako značajno, možda si ti korisnik toga ili posjećuješ – pub kvizove. Pub kvizovi su zapravo u ekspanziji, i u Sarajevu i u regionu…

Jelena Kalinić: Samo moram istaći da Nauka govori, kao udruženje Nauka i svijet mi smo radili te kvizove i fenomenalni su rezultati.

Vuk Vučetić: I samo hoću reći da činjenica, da pub kvizovi su u ekspanziji upravo govori o tome da nauka nije poražena. Zapravo da je… to je jedan mali prostor  i to je neko svjetlo na kraju tunela, dakle, gdje vi možete da vidite na jednom mjestu ljude koji ipak žive jednim drugačijim životom, uslovno rečeno. Dakle koji cijene nauku, koji neće…

Jelena Kalinić: Ne govorimo samo o nauci, govorimo i o umjetnosti, znači uopšte humanističkim nekim razmišljanjem, tako da ima mjesta…

Vuk Vučetić: Tako da u tom smislu, ja bih rekao da nije kraj svijeta, daleko od toga, nego da zapravo postoji nekakva alternativa ovom dominantnom, dominirajućem mainstreamu o kojem smo govori. I brain rotu i dezinformacijama i trolovima i slično. I postoji jedan čitav svijet koji funkcioniše po nekakvim drugim šinama.

Jelena Kalinić: Ali treba ga učiniti vidljivijim.

Vuk Vučetić: Da.

Jelena Kalinić: Ja bih s ovim nekako i završila sve ovo. Dakle učiniti lijepe pametne stvari vidljivijim i kroz neke druge akcije, ne samo kroz medije, i kroz kvizove i svašta nešto. Imaš li još nešto dodati kao zaključak?

Vuk Vučetić: Upravo to, Volio bih samo da kažem da mi je izuzetno drago što sam danas bio dio ovog razgovora i mislim da smo poslali jednu finu, lijepu poruku, konstruktivnu da…

Jelena Kalinić: …ima nade…

Vuk Vučetić: Ovakvi i slični sadržaji trebaju da budu dio nekakvog mainstreama dakle na taj način ćemo učiniti svoj nekakav doprinos boljem društvu.

Jelena Kalinić: Vuče, puno ti hvala!

Vuk Vučetić: Hvala tebi na pozivu i još jednom pozdrav svima onima koji budu pratili ovo.

Jelena Kalinić: Ovo je bila još jedna epizoda serijala Factcast podkasta Nauka govori u okviru projekta Evropske Unije „Podizanje svijesti i znanja o naučnoj pismenosti u Bosni i Hercegovini“.

Translation:

Jelena Kalinić: We live in a time where people trust a viral video more than an expert. Today, our guest is Doctor of Communication Sciences Vuk Vučetić, associate professor at the Faculty of Philosophy of the University of East Sarajevo. We will talk about the media, about misinformation, misinformation, misinformation and their impact on society, that is, on us. Drag, welcome.

Vuk Vučetić: Thank you for the invitation and I'm really glad to be here today.

Jelena Kalinić: This is an important topic. At the same time, a lot of attention is given to it, and yet this attention and information about media literacy do not reach enough people. That's how I usually start with people, straight away, I hit them in the head. Are we becoming, in fact, in these times, are we a consumer or are we actually a product of what we use in this attention economy?

Vuk Vučetić: Well, that's a great question to start with. I would actually say that there is no such thing as a free lunch. This is where Milton Friedman once said, if I remember correctly, that is, translated into the language of the attention economy, I would say that if the service is free, then we are in fact a commodity, the users are commodities. In other words, attention and all our activities that we do in the online space have become a kind of oil of the 21st century. So, large corporations and companies use our digital activities in the online space and based on that they actually create a kind of digital profile of ours, which they then use to target, more easily, or calm down different contents according to our…

00/01/47

Jelena Kalinić: We are goods.

Vuk Vučetić: We are definitely a commodity, because our attention is used by large corporations to generate additional profits. I often like to tell students to compare how it was targeted in the past and how it is today. Well, let's say, if you take for example how in the past, let's say when children should start school, then they advertise, for example, boutiques and so on. So, advertisements were usually located… Billboards were usually located in front of schools or somewhere near the school, so that parents could see these advertisements. However, today there is no longer a need for corporations to guess where a parent will pass and which way they go to school, but today you can simply target all the needs of individuals in a personalized way. So actually when we follow or search for, I don't know, coats, winter 2026, rubber boots, rubber boots or apartments or something like that immediately pops up. So actually we are definitely a commodity that helps big corporations actually make extra profits. What is problematic in my opinion is that we actually live in such a world, in such an environment in fact, which is controlled by smart algorithms. And we practically direct our attention… that is, smart algorithms direct our attention. So, in this sense, we close the so-called echo chambers.

Jelena Kalinić: In essence, they are changing us too.

Vuk Vučetić: Absolutely. So, considering that they direct our attention and the way we communicate, the way we understand each other, the way we set principles is actually the reality in which we live. Now, why is that problematic? This is not problematic because the algorithm will direct our attention to listen to a certain type of music or to buy certain boots or products, etc. The problem is actually political ideas. So, if the algorithm directs our attention to certain political ideas or those political ideas that somehow correspond to our preferences. The problem is because then we close ourselves in echo chambers and are not ready to somehow face the other and the different.

00/03/54

Jelena Kalinić: That's exactly what I wanted to ask you. You and I know about echo chambers, but that term doesn't mean much to people. Echo chambers, echo bubbles , mean confinement to a single worldview.

Vuk Vučetić: Exactly. So, even though we have those echo chambers, so to speak, and closing them into our informational echo chambers, it helps in some way. So, let's say when you listen to a certain type of music, YouTube will offer you a similar music genre or a similar track. That suits you somewhere.

Jelena Kalinić: What Grandma liked, that's what she dreamed of.

Vuk Vučetić: Yes. However, on the other hand, if it directs your attention to certain political ideas that match your preferences. So, that problem is that you face another and different. This leads to the polarization of society. Therefore, if we are closed in our pens and are not ready to communicate with others, then democracy and all democratic principles are threatened. Considering that if there is no freedom and speech, and dialogue, debate and so on, I think we are not ready to develop those democratic values ​​that are very important in modern society. And what are we witnessing? We are witnessing polarization not only at the local level, but also at the global level. So, you can see that these radical political parties are on the rise and I would say that this problem actually contributes in part.

00/05/12

Jelena Kalinić: There is no dialogue, but now you mentioned that freedom of speech that we all stand for, it is really very important and we are all somehow against censorship, but how far can this freedom of speech go?

Vuk Vučetić: Well, that is one of the, as I would say, million dollar questions, so to speak.

So, where is the limit of freedom of speech? Theoretically speaking, my freedom of speech ends where I start to endanger the other person. In fact, it ends where the freedom of the other person begins. But that sounds nice in theory. I mean, in practice it's very fluid and flexible, because I feel like the boundaries are shifting.

Jelena Kalinić: But we don't know what can hurt, harm someone else.

Vuk Vučetić: Exactly! We are even entering, I would say, an era of some kind of tyranny of political correctness, where we are practically not allowed to say anything today, because everything can be misused.

Jelena Kalinić: I think we're actually dating now, that now there's this kind of… expressing opinions that can really hurt someone.

Vuk Vučetić: Exactly. Now it is the other extreme. I actually believe that, when we talk about some kind of potential solution for that situation, I think that it all starts from the earliest ages. I think that the education system and the social community in general should be more involved in, as I would say, raising new generations that will actually be in accordance with some principles and values ​​and the spirit of the times, that is, in which these generations are growing up.

00/06/42

Jelena Kalinić: Let's say, I recently exposed some political ideologies that are completely opposite to what I, for example, represent, we won't say what it is and all that, but I'm interested when you say “solutions”. And what could be the solution for the young generation? So that year? Are they debating clubs? Is it learning about dialogue? Is it a way to listen to others and ourselves, to argue our views? What is the method that we could release?

Vuk Vučetić: So there is no magic wand. I often like, I try like this in lectures, so I show them a slide of Superman. If we have this man, then maybe he could help us solve some problems. Given that he is not there, therefore, simply, the great responsibility is now on the individual. Unfortunately, the system failed. We have practically been in the 21st century for 20 and a half years. So many things were happening. Technology has advanced in expansion and so on, and the system still does not have any answer to these problems. So, in that sense, there is no overnight solution for us to solve these problems faced by new generations. But what can help is exactly that, reading as much as possible, communicating as much as possible, opening up to different attitudes and opinions. This does not necessarily mean accepting them, but looking for some reasoned ways to oppose a different opinion if we do not agree with it. Or, let's say, if we are faced with different forms of disinformation or conspiracy theories and so on, we can also argue everything, to oppose all these problems and challenges. This is, of course, a big problem for the individual. It is not simple.

00/08/27

Jelena Kalinić: There are no tools, I'm afraid that the individual does not have the tools to stand up

Vuk Vučetić: There is no tool. The only tool, I would say, is common sense, which, of course, is very difficult to develop overnight. That's why it's actually a generational business. I would say that we are not too late, and if we start now, therefore, if the education system or the social community or different institutions…

Jelena Kalinić: Extracurricular, perhaps, education?

Vuk Vučetić: Yes. Informally, therefore, to supplement it so that individuals, in fact, first of all understand what kind of environment they live in. I think that this is one of the problems, that actually individuals, precisely because they grew up with different ideas, different values ​​and so on, which they adopted through their socialization process, simply. They actually believe that they live in certain worlds that have some kind of rules and some kind of logic, and that's how it is. However, the problem arises the moment it is confronted, when they are faced with something that does not correspond to what they have been instructed in since birth.

Jelena Kalinić: Then they react aggressively.

Vuk Vučetić: They react aggressively and they react with misunderstanding, they react with hate speech, they react with various negative phenomena that we actually witness in the online space today. You can actually see that the online space is completely unregulated, that it is actually a training ground for the spread of various negative forms and media content, but I would also say these activities, misunderstandings, hate speech, comments, calls to violence, violence as such. You can actually see that the young generations are practically somewhere… that there has been a kind of normalization of violence, not only in the online space, but it is now spilling over into real reality. Every now and then we see examples of boys and girls who are actually victims of violence or commit violence. And they actually make it a kind of activity that is acceptable, unfortunately.

00/10/23

Jelena Kalinić: Is it possible that the reason for this is that those in the digital space, in the digital world, consider themselves anonymous, it's different when you and I are talking now or anyone in person, even when we disagree, we won't fight out of mutual respect. But online, in comments on social networks, it's much simpler.

Vuk Vučetić: That's right. Another practical example: If you imagine that you are in an elevator and someone steps on your foot, you will tell them ok, no problem. But if you find yourself in traffic where there is only 10 centimeters of metal between you, so a car, if it doesn't turn green right away, you are practically ready to punch that person you have never seen in your life in the face. So in fact, the more intermediaries you have in communication, the less responsibility there is. And the distances. And the less responsibility there is. And even when we communicate with someone who is our friend or, say, a boyfriend or girlfriend, something like that, it is much easier when we have some kind of intermediary, Viber or something like that to communicate a message than in person. Well, in person, break up.

Jelena Kalinić: It's much harder to admit “I love you” or “we're breaking up” in person.

Vuk Vučetić: Of course. Because the responsibility is greater. Therefore, the greater the responsibility, the more complicated the situation.

Jelena Kalinić: Smaller physical barrier. Then all of this somehow tells us that in a world where you can be anything, be kind. We lack etiquette and kindness, empathy and critical thinking.

Vuk Vučetić: Exactly. So, we got the Internet, a new toy as a society, as a civilization, and we didn't get any rules for using that toy. So it's like, I don't know, handing out razor blades to kids in kindergarten and saying, play with this. And you hope they don't get hurt, sort of. This is the level of understanding of the role of the Internet in the world today. Simply, therefore, the new generations do not have any system support for the use of the Internet and actually online behavior.

00/12/23

Jelena Kalinić: Actually, the whole story about media and digital literacy is about the fact that we don't have from homes, schools, kindergartens, let's say, that learning how to behave. Just as there used to be etiquette at dinner, how to hold a fork and a knife so as not to squish or squish when eating soup, now we need this for media and digital.

Vuk Vučetić: We don't have any convention. Here, we mentioned in an informal conversation a while ago, we talked about emoticons and emojis. Well, I always give that example, actually, how we don't have any convention about the use of those gestures. So, we don't have any at all, it's now left to some kind of our internal agreement, some kind of convention that can very often confuse more than contribute to some kind of understanding.

Jelena Kalinić: Regarding these emojis, I remember that example of that hand like this. And some interpret it as, give me five, give me five, and others as a prayer.

Vuk Vučetić: Yes. I had a personal experience of a situation when I was texting with a colleague. And then that thumbs up on messenger just appeared. So, that automatic command. And we were often in some kind of communication when I had something on the road or something like that. I replied to him with those thumbs up in the sense of, I accepted the message, I don't have time… but everything was very positive. I accepted the message, I thought about it. And after a while we were sitting over coffee and he said to me: “Why are you angry?” I said: “What do you think I'm angry about?” Like: “You always send me that thumbs up”. I said: “That means it's okay”. I said: “To me, it actually means that nothing is okay, that you want to get rid of me…”

Jelena Kalinić: From the agenda.

Vuk Vučetić: I've actually realized that these emojis and the like can contribute more to misunderstanding than to understanding.

00/14/01

Jelena Kalinić: My team members taught me that if you put your heart on Viber, that means you accept it. That's right, but related to that is the premature, quick interpretation of these non-verbal signals, messages that are written. So somehow now we are moving to the Egyptian alphabet, hieroglyphs. Are we now somehow losing the ability of deep critical thinking?

Vuk Vučetić: Absolutely. I think that everything, the environment in which we live, let's say we mentioned media literacy a moment ago, I think the key thing here is that we all understand that media literacy is not just an understanding of some media content. So, we have long since moved on from that level, so to speak. I think that the essence of media literacy is actually an understanding that we live in the media as an environment. So, the media are no longer tools that help us communicate more easily and faster, but actually represent the environment within which social reality takes place. So they actually shape the way we function, communicate, perceive others, etc. So, we lack that one understanding. It is precisely in such an environment that there are actually different contents and different media forms that actually circulate and that actually make people lose their attention. We talked about that a moment ago. That our attention span today is actually reduced to a few seconds practically. So, the longer we scroll , the longer our attention can be held.

Now, the problem is that our brain, no matter how much we scroll , has to make a series of small decisions whether to stay on that content or to switch to a new one. That large number of decisions that our brain has to make in very short units of time actually tires the brain. And to the point that our brain can no longer process the information and content that we perceive. In this sense, we can spend two or three hours scrolling after that and we have no idea what we saw and whether we are informed at all.

00/16/12

Jelena Kalinić: Is it better to train our brains to look at one text or one video in depth instead of 30 for 5-10 seconds?

Vuk Vučetić: It's called a media diet. Essentially…

Jelena Kalinić: Detoxification.

Vuk Vučetić: Detoxification, therefore, media. That would actually be some kind of… So, now it's difficult again. You now have generations and generations of children and young people, in fact, now even old people, who spend a lot of their time precisely in that uncritical, therefore, uncritical deviation towards technologies and towards the content they consume. So, in fact, in this sense, a type of personal hygiene, when it comes to the attitude towards the media and media content, should definitely be used from the earliest ages. However, what do we have as a problem now? We have young parents who, in order to calm their children down, roughly give them some kind of smartphone and they scroll looking for some content and they already create a kind of habit and addiction there.

Jelena Kalinić: We were just talking about that with Professor Zečević.

Vuk Vučetić: Yes, yes. So actually in that sense, some kind of recipe for how to achieve that is very difficult, but I don't think it's impossible. I think it's actually a challenge for both the educational system and the family and the wider community to actually get involved in order to make such things… But I think the problem is that institutions don't recognize at all that we live in a new environment. So, what is very interesting in books can be found in various research. For example, Marshall McLuhan actually noticed that even in the 20th century, institutions were always late in responding to the development of technology.

00/17/51

Jelena Kalinić: And the answer is mostly self-regulation and something like that. But when we talk about this media literacy, digital literacy, about exposure to a huge amount of content, while we are all here, let's see what are the most common forms of manipulation in the media and digital space. We constantly mention this misinformation, misinformation, except for these people in the communication profession and us who are perhaps involved in debanking, few people know the distinction between the two and what are some of the most common spins, manipulations that you might single out. Is that taking it out of context?

Vuk Vučetić: As for the general discourse, the narrative about misinformation that actually circulates in the online space, I would say that the story has gone a little bit, in my opinion, in the wrong direction. Because very often they want to declare what is incorrect as misinformation. This is incorrect, this is misinformation, instead we have facts that are correct. I would say that actually the story of disinformation and the definition of disinformation in general is what people often overlook. So, some definition of disinformation should be malicious dissemination, it must be malicious. Therefore, it must be malicious systemic dissemination of verifiably incorrect content. Be careful, therefore, when you have a malicious intention, but the intention is very difficult to prove. So, for something to be intentional, it must be systematically repeated day after day and so on. So you can't establish that something is disinformation in real time, but it can somehow turn out to be disinformation if it's found to be repeated. So it must be verifiably false. So, it turns out that what someone said is incorrect. We today, be careful, in the narrative of politicians, in the narrative of different people who spread such or similar sorrows. We have different subtle forms, therefore, and spins, and alternative facts, and facts taken out of context and so on. So, it's a gray area that is practically elusive. So, especially in the ordinary eye, let's say, in an average consumer of media content, it is very difficult for him to distinguish whether it is spin, whether it is some kind of manipulation attempt, whether it is some kind of alternative fact, because now that is also one of the phenomena that is very interesting. So actually in that context, very often something is lightly called disinformation. So, because it is now some kind of narrative, a buzzword so to speak, so now everything is disinformation…

00/20/28

Jelena Kalinić: It is easiest to put him in that category.

Vuk Vučetić: But essentially, we have a large number of different phenomena such as alternative facts, spin…

Jelena Kalinić: Exploiting logical errors.

Vuk Vučetić: Exploiting logical errors, well done. So, these are all elements that belong to disinformation activities, right? So, they belong to… But practically it has existed since the existence of man.

Jelena Kalinić: Yellow press, journalist ducks, various political manipulations, we watched movies…

Vuk Vučetić: You actually mentioned taking it out of context. So, one of the most interesting, or rather the most unusual forms of disinformation activity or the most… well, maybe more current forms of disinformation activity is taking it out of context. What does that mean? So you have a credible photo placed in a completely different context.

Jelena Kalinić: Can a statement be like that?

Vuk Vučetić: Yes, absolutely. So, it's fortunate that now, let's say, in the era of digital technologies and free digital tools, we have a way to, you know, perform some kind of verification. But again, you have to…

Jelena Kalinić: And yet most people don't know that.

Vuk Vučetić: They don't know. So, that's the problem.

Jelena Kalinić: What are we going to do, Vuče, with trolls and bots?

Vuk Vučetić: It is actually a phenomenon. Trolls and bots appeared on the political scene some ten years ago. They became, I would say, “silent heroes”, yes, under supposed signs.

Jelena Kalinić: Antiheroes.

Vuk Vučetić: Antiheroes, er, of political discourse, especially in these areas. We need to know that bots are in some kind of direct translation, so, etymologically speaking, they are actually… Robots. Robots that should… these are software that should generate some kind of content.

Jelena Kalinić: And that's what those farms have, which generate something, some content.

Vuk Vučetić: However, in our context, bots are actually ordinary people, so we translated them into ordinary people. And in fact, it is somehow an army, machinery, people who are paid to generate or some kind of content, or to direct discussion and debate. Their goal is actually, of course, or, on the one hand, the promotion of certain ideas…

00/22/20

Jelena Kalinić: Polarization…

Vuk Vučetić: …or personalities. Or, on the other hand, condemning those who are political opponents. In any case, they contribute to exactly that. So, polarization, these are negative phenomena in the media space. And one of the biggest problems is that insufficiently media literate people cannot recognize…

Jelena Kalinić: Distinguish. That's what I wanted to ask you: Do we have a way to distinguish that someone, perhaps, has an agenda, a bot, a troll…

Vuk Vučetić: So far, we have somehow managed to reach some solutions, is that all these orders, or, usually, bot orders, have some specific characteristics. It's that they don't have many friends, but that they follow a lot of other people. So, that there are usually some photos that are not authentic, but some were downloaded from the Internet, or some, therefore, were generated in a different way.

Jelena Kalinić: Or maybe they're even new profiles, before the elections.

Vuk Vučetić: And that especially comes to the fore precisely in these kind of crisis periods. So, when are, I don't know, or the beginning of the election campaign, or some kind of extraordinary circumstance, etc. Usually, in that situation, we see a flood not only of these bots and trolls, but also a flood of different fake portals, so-called portaloids that do not have imprints, etc.

Jelena Kalinić: So, the imprint is that part of the portal where the editor signs and someone who stands behind it with their name and surname. There are quite a few of them.

Vuk Vučetić: So, the flood is practically in the era when it's an election year or when the pre-election campaign starts. Different political entities, therefore, launch these portals. We have no evidence for this, but simply according to the content, it can therefore be connected to different political subjects. So, they generate content that has exactly such a disinformation spin character and so on.

00/24/15

Jelena Kalinić: The language is also a bit toxic.

Vuk Vučetić: Language is always sensational and toxic. It's always a dramatization. And so on. And in fact, that also contributes… And then, in addition to these portals, we also have an army of bots that then roam around, sifting through these contents. And then it is some kind of matrix.

Jelena Kalinić: And then it actually gains visibility. But when it comes to these people who create content, as ugly as it sounds, content, we have another phenomenon, influencers.

Vuk Vučetić: That's right.

Jelena Kalinić: And we can't just say that influencers are those who act negatively, there are some who have… What does that mean? We're talking about context: influencers and accountability. How can influencers be held accountable?

Vuk Vučetić: I think actually when we talk about influencers, we are actually talking about a new era, that is, the era of the internet, the era of social networks, which is actually a new platform that has enabled such people to get some kind of attention and space. Given that the internet is an unregulated space, therefore, no one can expect now, that it is still… it is actually illusory to expect from people who earn money in this way, therefore, the market is free in a way, that they will actually be responsible for themselves. So, that they will use some kind of discourse or that they will use some kind of, create some kind of content that will contribute to some kind of…

Jelena Kalinić: If they're not just paid…

Vuk Vučetić: Everything is paid, simply, and in that sense, in fact, this kind of responsibility for public speaking is also paid for influencers. Fortunately, we have positive examples of influencers who are part of their own activities…

Jelena Kalinić: In the campaigns we were…

Vuk Vučetić: We were part of various awareness campaigns.

Jelena Kalinić: Socially, very…

Vuk Vučetić: Yes, responsible and so on. So, actually, in that sense, I believe that things will not change by themselves. In fact, it can only start from below, so to speak. Therefore, the responsibility is transferred to the individual, therefore, to us, to the users. If we recognize that someone is an influencer, that is, if we give some attention, he will therefore become important.

00/26/16

Jelena Kalinić: But we should somehow put the responsibility on the side of the institutions to really regulate it?

Vuk Vučetić: Of course, so the education system… But, given that it is the way it is now, so unfortunately, we are back to the individual who has some skills of his own, or should develop some skills and competencies of his own to recognize. Okay, this influencer is useful, in the broadest sense. I will follow him.

Jelena Kalinić: But not all of it…

Vuk Vučetić: But on the other hand, we have to sort out, so, what is positive, what is negative. Then there is, so, the difference is very flexible. What is good for me, is not for someone and so on. But, certainly, I think there are positive examples. So, influencers who work…

Jelena Kalinić: Influencers now have this halo of negativity, so I would like to not be negative towards them either.

Vuk Vučetić: Yes, you don't need to, nothing is black and white. So anyway, in all these examples, then, being an unregulated internet doesn't necessarily mean negative things. So, you have countless blogs, websites, podcasts, and so on…

Jelena Kalinić: Polyphony.

Vuk Vučetić: which can, therefore, contribute to some kind of quality. But, unfortunately, the problem is that negative content dominates.

Jelena Kalinić: Because they contribute to the economy of fear. We don't have much time yet, but I would just like to focus on one very specific type of content. That's what they've called slop content, brain rot content, low-quality information, information that is often generated by artificial intelligence. So, we're not talking about all content generated by artificial intelligence, but we have more and more that is artificial intelligence, that generated profiles are non-existent, and that slop content, so we have a whole genre of Italian slop , brain rot , and for children, that Skibidi toilet and all sorts of things. So, what do these terms mean and how can we trust our eyes?

Vuk Vučetić: So, what is problematic is that today we practically live our lives in virtual reality. Manuel Castells, a famous theorist, says that we no longer live in virtual reality, but in real virtuality. So, in that sense, all these phenomena that you listed actually speak in favor of the fact that our lives have practically moved into some kind of virtual reality and that we now have to survive there, in a way. You mentioned brain rot , actually it's on the heels of what we were talking about a moment ago. So, it's brain rot, or rather, this oversaturation with various negative content, but I would also say that exhausting scrolling, kilometers long.

00/28/45

Jelena Kalinić: Sometimes they're not even negative, but sometimes they're just plain stupid, like bananas, logs, something that…

Vuk Vučetić: Skibidi toilet, the way it became viral and popular, practically speaks of a concept that is still incomprehensible to me.

Jelena Kalinić: And maybe it's just a phase of childhood, they end up being ashamed of it…

Vuk Vučetić: So I actually think that when we talk about all of this content, we can definitely say that the challenge is big. So, how to deal with all of this. So, but what is a potential solution is media literacy. That's what's kind of… It's a buzzword , it's something that everyone is using now…

Jelena Kalinić: But no way, “how?” is not defined. Is it possible, for example, to strengthen some more serious, I don't mean more serious, but content that can really help this, such as content about science, strengthening scientific literacy, which, for example, is a kind of focus for us here, they can be antidotes , antidotes for such things.

Vuk Vučetić: Absolutely!

Jelena Kalinić: And it is avoided in the media.

Vuk Vučetić: The problem is that in the media you only have what is bombastic, sensational, which is in some way…

Jelena Kalinić: Clickable.

Vuk Vučetić: Clickable, which contributes to some emotional charge, etc. Science is not like that. Well, that's why you have conspiracy theories that are like a kind of counterpart to what science is. I think that science has never experienced its full… and it cannot and should not be that. And on the other hand, you have positive examples: for example, you have Politika's zabavnik as an example that speaks of the fact that science and such content still have their place in this world.

00/30/20

Jelena Kalinic: From 7 to 77

Vuk Vučetić: Well, podcasts like this and the like, and what you actually do with your blog is what represents a kind of resistance, if you can say so, and contributes to a kind of balance. Now, how to make science actually clickable? And actually, is that the goal at all? I think, perhaps in the broadest sense, it shouldn't be, because then we would reduce science to just that: “did you know”, “sensational” and so on. On the other hand, what I think is also very important, maybe you are a user of it or you visit – pub quizzes. Pub quizzes are actually expanding, both in Sarajevo and in the region…

Jelena Kalinić: I just have to point out that Science Speaks, as the Science and the World association, we did these quizzes and the results are phenomenal.

Vuk Vučetić: And I just want to say that the fact that pub quizzes are expanding speaks for itself that science has not been defeated. In fact, it is… it's a small space and it's a light at the end of the tunnel, where you can see in one place people who nevertheless live a different life, conditionally speaking. So who appreciates science, who won't…

Jelena Kalinić: We're not just talking about science, we're also talking about art, that is to say, humanistic thinking in general, so there is room…

Vuk Vučetić: So in that sense, I would say that it is not the end of the world, far from it, but that there is actually some kind of alternative to this dominant, dominating mainstream that we are talking about. And brain rot and misinformation and trolls and the like. And there is a whole world that functions on some other lines.

Jelena Kalinić: But it needs to be made more visible.

Vuk Vučetić: Yes.

Jelena Kalinić: I would somehow end all this with this. So make beautiful, smart things more visible through other actions, not only through the media, but also through quizzes and all sorts of things. Do you have anything else to add as a conclusion?

Vuk Vučetić: Exactly, I would just like to say that I am extremely glad to have been part of this conversation today and I think we have sent a nice, beautiful message, a constructive one that…

Jelena Kalinić: …there is hope…

Vuk Vučetić: This and similar contents should be part of some kind of mainstream , so in this way we will make some sort of contribution to a better society.

Jelena Kalinić: Vuče, thank you very much!

Vuk Vučetić: Thank you for the invitation and once again greetings to all those who will be following this.

Jelena Kalinić: This was another episode of the Factcast podcast series Science Speaks as part of the European Union project “Raising awareness and knowledge about scientific literacy in Bosnia and Herzegovina”.